Interesting suggestion Mike. From what I can tell these are all almost universally suck instead of blow, which is currently accomplished by the cyclone we’ve got. Not sure how I could replace it on the outfeed. Guess it might work okay that way as well? Also it seems like we’d want to rig up some sort of water line to it (like an icemaker sized line) and an automatic valve. Otherwise it’s going to run out of water, and likely nobody will notice it’s empty.
Anyway, something to think about, I’m going to poke about and see if I can find any useful plans. You’re correct this would resolve the filter issue quite neatly, and in a manner that should be cheaper than filters, and still trap all the dust.
I think regardless of direction, the oil bath or water filters use kinetic energy to douse the particle in a capture fluid. It then does not have enough energy to leave the liquid. Might take a few trial and error runs to learn how much and how often to flush the reservoir, but if no noticeable dust goes outside, then everybody is happy. Conversely, if it is that clean, then vent inside is also okay. Which might on a micro scale save some heating costs.
Dunno if there are copyright restrictions, but it is a technology… and oil baths used to be the norm for air filters… my old VW had em… so, tech has likely had patent expire long ago
Lol I’m used to the big ole foam uni air filters that you just added a bit of oil to squeezed out the excess theb went off roadin in crazy dusty stuff. They were not all that restrictive on aireflow either. I might look up and see of any of the extra extra large canister types are still sold or pods/panels tomorrow. They would have to be cleaned in a bucket of hot soapy water when suction decreases however down at the gravel pits and has pen acres we always had huge luck with them in VERY dusty conditions.
The other problem with the water filter is that it probably requires more horse power than we’re getting out of the impeller.
@Kevin - While being porous is generally an advantage, in this case the fine dust filter is supposed to catch sub micron bit of dust. This which is the reason for the large, expensive filter. Not sure if something designed to let in air, while keeping out mud is going to be fine enough. The current filter’s we’re using are MERV 15.
BTW, just in case anybody is wondering why I’m pushing to get this outside, I think this would help:
Most large woodworking facilities vent their dust collection systems outside, so fine dust exposure is limited to the dust being made. Even with this limited exposure the insurance data for large facility woodworkers is terrible. Fine dust exposure causes one in seven to develop such bad allergic reactions they must stop woodworking, one in fourteen is forced into an early medical retirement, some get poisoned and develop nasal cancers and all lose about 1% of their respiratory capacity per year of work which worsens age related health problems and shortens lifespans. The medical research shows the higher and longer the fine dust exposure the worse the damage. This should terrify small shop woodworkers, because OSHA testing shows most small shop workers who vent their dust collection systems inside get more fine dust exposure in a few hours woodworking than large facility workers get in months of full time work. The problem is most small shops vent their dust collection systems inside which lets the dust build to dangerously high levels greatly increasing our exposure.
Most… but then I think, a water capture is so uncommon as to have almost no web presence. Either way, once you go the Osha and Niosh route, you’d have to prove out process, and have capture badges and grab samples, composite samples and the works. Essentially, you’d have a known hazard, then via the magic of 29 CFR you’d have the general duty to address it.
That being said… you realize that creating and testing a system like this, would likely be an abstract worthy paper for industrial hygiene, industrial engineering, or environmental engineering types? Because 0 ppm is 0 ppm. Less than 10 particles m3 is less than 10 particles m3. And something that would guarantee the dust knocked back to no concern guaranteed would be a real game changer.
“Practical considerations in dust level reduction via water capture” “Reduction of exposure to wood dust by water capture filtration”
Seeing as there is a nearby college, the noodle power and such might be available. Those profs need to publish, or they get that whole perish bit. Win/win maybe?
It’s the oil that you add to a multi layer washable foam filter that acts as a magnet for the dust to stick to as it flows though the filter. Of course I would not condone running the test on our good filters however if we were to take those filters and add an oily spray to them you will see alot more of the fine particles traped.
On the Hugh extended Baja races that take place in the deserts, thar is how they keep the dust out of the extremely performance oriented motor that has to run all out for a very long period of time. Im wondering if we can build a box in line with the exit pipe that is going outside to try this theory if you don’t mind. I know merv ratings are an industry standard for filtration however different oils can produce really cool filtering effects. Kind of how foam insulation vs the r value used for building code standards go. Foam can provide holy crap results as a heat brake yet be paper thin compared to what glass or fiber insulation has to bo…
Sorry for the tangent but there may be a simple way to add a vortex generator right before the box and spin he air going into the box while using a washable performance offloading air filter material… it would at least be a cool experiment to do. I bought a 1/2 sheet of thick acrilyc from the person who leases the building behind the hive and it might be cool to see lol.
Kevin/Mike if either one of you wants to build something we can definitely test it out. They both sound like interesting ideas that could work, so go for it.
I did find a few commercial units, problem is they are likely pricey. Some are even for dusts/metals and extreme fire hazards. If it is a problem for us, it is likely a problem for many other shops and maker spaces.
The breakdown is that for large industry, the cost is not an issue, for small shops… well…
An open source design that might be cost effective might be just the thing. I am hesitant on oils… because they can create a disposal stream that may need to be documented. We are in luck the old pressure treated lumber is out of use, that would create an arsenic issue. Sludge and some process wastes get horrid disposal codes… Something that can discharge to sewer without a permit? Hey… easy peasy.
So, question is… what size//volume do we shoot for? A test bed proof of concept say for a shop vac? Or straight to a unit designed to keep pace with a typical collector like at the hive?
I’ll keep searching and see if the wheel is not already invented and forgotten somewhere.
Doesn’t seem that big, so it could be something we could do as a project. The solution seems somewhat straightforward: curtains of water. Also it’s higher HP than our current unit, which is 2 HP.
I think you might be right about the oil rig. Kevin, how often does the oil need to be cleaned/changed? I think we’re currently going several months/years between people paying any attention to our current filter. Hence the 10 gallons of dust I pulled out of the cyclone, and the packed dust in the small container.
I think it depends on how the oil acts. Boiled Linseed Oil has spontaneous combustion because it cures in an exothermic reaction. However saw dust + oil sounds like a great fuel for a fire. Probably like charcoal briquettes and lighter fluid.
If the dust output is as low as you say, and the oil is a synthetic with a VERY high flash point we should be good. Keeping it insulated from a static is more what I would worry it. I don’t know if we are going to run pipe down the wall towards the ground vs shooting it into the air. That would make a bit of a difference on things getting coated in the back.
It’s more water and debris goes to sewer without much permitting worry. Putting the oil down the drain… not so recommended. Lemme tell you about a spill in a parking garage, the Potomac and the Coast Guard someday. Another point, there are differing styles that are confusing, some use sprays, which I think may cause a bit of humidifying above what would be present in the systems doing multiple vectored downdrafts into a water media. Several styles and sizes on the web confusing things too. Fabbing some sheet metal to try it out? Not so bad. I did just download the sketch up, now for the learning curve.
Heh, water bong When this thread mentioned some sort of water filter with automatic refilling, The image that came to my mind was a toilet flushing…
(on a more serious) If the woodshop was closer to the bathroom, I could see hooking the two up somehow, The toilet gets flushed regularly, and using the water twice is a cool idea. and would eliminate the need for any sort of automation on the collection side. But the distance to run ducting (SEALED against pressure loss) doesn’t look practical.
High pressure / velocity pneumatic lines
A central bong hub with cyclo-matic oil-bong and water-bong filtration stages
A pressurized self-purging sewer line with an auto-accumulating dust regurgitater
Grey water irrigation ditches to combine wood and kitchen waste streams, and water the alfalfa hay field
Termination at a macerating lumber defenestration apparatus
I think we’re going in the right direction. Keep em coming!
I think the process lacks fire, electronics and LEDs. I’m thinking that we could add a flamethrower under the fine dust spout to make sure that it was set on fire as it comes out the window. I don’t think we’re paying for the gas, so we can run this 24/7. Also maybe an LED sign that is tied in with the RFID reader so that people know which hive member is using the shop, and is responsible for the emissions. Finally maybe a camera, so that we can track who outputs the best dust/makes the biggest poof.
When this thread mentioned some sort of water filter with automatic refilling, The image that came to my mind was a toilet flushing…