Official Means of Communication

Rather than derail another thread, I wanted to bring this conversation over to this medium.

"Ok so as a non profit with members, an official way of contact, is a way that can reach all members. This is required for certain legal things. This public forum does not fall under that category. Proposals do not have to goto all members by our bylaws and proposals do not have to posted on this board. By you calling this the official communication method of Sadbee Inc d.b.a. Hive13 leads to a legal issue. The term official is incorrect.

It’s the official message board, and it’s the common way of communication but it’s not the official way of communication to reach all members, that’s a legal area that has alot higher degree."

Personally I’m just repeating what I’ve been told, that this is the official communication method of Sadbee Inc. If this is not can somebody provide what is the official means of communication?

Our membership form provides a preferred method of communication. Not sure there is an “official” Hive method of communication.

sigh Just when I thought we might go a week without hearing the word “bylaws”.

The mailing list is the official method of communication for proposing votes and discussing them. Joining is not a requirement of membership, but it is available to all members. The onus is on the individual to choose whether they wish to participate.

  • Ian B.

I totally agree, I don’t think anyone has said anything to the contrary. What point are you hoping to make?

I’m not hoping nor trying to make any point. The purpose of the original email was unclear, but seems to suggest that the mailing list is not an official method of communication. This is not correct, therefore I responded to say so.

  • Ian B.

Daniel was in the temporary storage thread. Rather than let him derail another thread I thought we’d split out that discussion.

Thank you Ian for confirming it.

Yep and just responding to your comments in that thread. Derailing another thread? So responding to you is derailing a thread?

Also reread what Ian put out, it was pretty specific in that regards. Which in the same area, a vote can be proposed at a meeting without making a post in the list? Has happened quite a bit in the past, hell before the mailing list rarely had votes put up here. So feel free to call a “special meeting” (i use that in quotes to denote the specific use of that term)in the forum/public mailing list, let’s see how well that up to legal precedents. Thinking of which, feel free to look up the ORC regarding this: Chapter 1702: NONPROFIT CORPORATION LAW.

As a representative of the organization, giving false information can be detrimental to a non-profit, including up to losing our Non profit status (as a Warden, I would be pretty confident that the courts would see you as a representative.) Please be cautious of how you word things.

Im just going to make a brief statement at what and why I think some members may have certain assumptions of things vs others… Please do not take this as an attack but a mere observation of members vs. thought process. If anyone else feels the same or understands how I kind of see things and can explain it better, please do. Here it goes…

When I joined the hive it was right after a blowout with a member that had gotten physical with another one just very shortly before my first meeting. Even though that had happened the hive had a strong group of members that all seemed to be chugging away at building bridges rather than setting them on fire. Yes there were disagreements about things but it never got to close to what has been happening at the current time. What used to be able to be talked about after a meeting or over some camp washington has now turned into if you do not keep up with the mailing list at minimum daily its crazy what I come back to after just missing 2 days of posts lol. It seems like it has come down to rather than being able to talk with members as a whole at the next meeting about making changes to the space, hive projects, to do lists, etc it turns into epic thread wars that turn members away from the meeting or even make them leave permanently. When I joined the first thing I learned is we have some members that have very busy work lives, along with family obligations, personal projects, and mainly just getting their ass kicked busy and it seemed there was this courtesy to involve all of the members, especially those that were an integral part of the hive.

So in theory I believe that relying on this mailing list as the official way that people communicate and acting on that principal has come to kinda give the a black eye and be a bit rash to people. There has almost become an expectation it feels that if someone does not respond to threads daily that they are not “active” or if they chime in a little later in a thread its held against them. It may be odd coming from me saying this… The atmosphere has seemed to changed DRASTICALLY within the past 6 months or so and it seems to be parallel with a few things, I do not believe one issue has changed the dynamic or direction of what has happened. It just seems that what would have been a group project with making improvements to the space has now turned into to a someone leading the charge “quickly” and if someone does reply in time on the list to offer input things go negative even faster. The entire tone of threads seems to be always going towards people having to explain and re explain they meant no harm. Hell even giving this input I am likely to get a who is that about, or I want examples from someone lol but I am not promoting negativity in any way.

I just wish things would slow down a hair as some things go from space improvement idea to its done in just a few days with only 2 or 3 people getting a chance to make an input. It is even where I think for about a minute before hitting send in response to something on the mailing list because somehow, someway someone will take it the wrong way when I had no ill intentions. Possibly we could make it a point to try and figure out a way to get people together talking about hive projects in person rather than just on the list during the saturday events and cleanups prior to taking on a task? I would love to see people get to know other members better and talk in person more so this always thinking someone meant the worst goes away as you get to better know people and realize its only input they are giving… its not an personal attack. There is just A LOT of tension at the Hive with things it seems, especially mailing list threads… So yeah we need to hug it out lol :slight_smile:

Now for my straight forward response to the thread… I do not believe the mailing list should be labeled the official means of communication for the Hive for multiple reasons. A lot of hive members have to travel for work and or have other things that pull their attention to where they may not be able to check up on the list for say up to a week. Given at the speed things have been going from concept to action with projects on the list recently it really leaves people out to voice an opinion or go through it in person. Secondly it is pretty hard to keep up with the direction every thread is going, some days its like dear lord when Iog into my pone and I have 14 google notifications from the list… and the day is not over lol. Lastly the bickering on here when just trying to dicus thing has proved to be rather lengthy. For every post it takes 3 additional posts trying to ease things out explaining it was jut an suggestion, not an attack.

Could the mailing list become calm again and people use it more as members?.. Yes I fully believe that. I know of quite a few members that went from having it set up as instant notifications to a longer period of time because the hive chatter was in your face 24/7 of both the good and the bad. Possibly we could restore friday or saturday meet ups that were scheduled and people communicate in person while working on personal projects or having a group discussion about hive improvement tasks while there/ doing projects together as a group. I can vouch for hive members putting it sun up to sun down on a hive task then having to sleep for 3 hours or just watch the news until it was time to bust ass again and a good box of donuts and orange juice if out of town, or camp washington goetta and oj while talking a game plan and working together on some of the bigger thing done at the hive always brought an awesome vibe. We need the mailing list however we need to find a time other than the meeting to add that personal human element back into things to get members that are tied up during the week and or away from the mailing list a chance to show up in person.

The best way for the hive to kick ass as a group is to find a means of full integration and not just comments on here that KEEP getting questioned if they are good/bad intentions and or attacking someone for their viewpoint/or when they tate our rules. I feel all of tis can be solved with taking a deep breath, non meeting days at the hive, and slowing down expectations for someone not responding to a thread asap. We are growing great and going to be expanding our specialty tools, things that drive the hive even more. So lets meet that expansion with being a bit more optimistic… kind of like the story of the tortoise vs. hare race lol. Speedy and erratic is not a good game plan however calm and steady will make things much much more stable. :stuck_out_tongue:

From Daniel:

Also reread what Ian put out, it was pretty specific in that regards. Which in the same area, a vote can be proposed at a meeting without making a post in the list? Has happened quite a bit in the past, hell before the mailing list rarely had votes put up here. So feel free to call a “special meeting” (i use that in quotes to denote the specific use of that term)in the forum/public mailing list, let’s see how well that up to legal precedents. Thinking of which, feel free to look up the ORC regarding this: Chapter 1702: NONPROFIT CORPORATION LAW.

Wanted to comment on the above statement. Years ago you could propose a vote and vote at the same meeting. That was changed so that the item had to be proposed one week and then voted on the next week (leaving a full week of discussion), with discussion occurring in person at the meeting and on the mailing list before the vote occurred.

As a representative of the organization, giving false information can be detrimental to a non-profit, including up to losing our Non profit status (as a Warden, I would be pretty confident that the courts would see you as a representative.) Please be cautious of how you word things.
As to comment on this statement. Why do you always insist in bringing in the courts/law when someone says something contrary to what you say? It’s exhausting. And silly. Seriously. This is a personal statement, not a statement made on behalf of the hive leadership. And that is how it would be interpreted. This is a public mailing list, anyone can comment anything they want. If and when it becomes a problem, we can deal with it as an organization. There is not a reason to involve the law or courts, it’d be a waste of time and money and just petty. Please stop with idle comments such as these. Not just you Daniel, But Everyone. It really does no one any good.

From Kevin:

So in theory I believe that relying on this mailing list as the official way that people communicate and acting on that principal has come to kinda give the a black eye and be a bit rash to people. There has almost become an expectation it feels that if someone does not respond to threads daily that they are not “active” or if they chime in a little later in a thread its held against them. It may be odd coming from me saying this… The atmosphere has seemed to changed DRASTICALLY within the past 6 months or so and it seems to be parallel with a few things, I do not believe one issue has changed the dynamic or direction of what has happened. It just seems that what would have been a group project with making improvements to the space has now turned into to a someone leading the charge “quickly” and if someone does reply in time on the list to offer input things go negative even faster. The entire tone of threads seems to be always going towards people having to explain and re explain they meant no harm. Hell even giving this input I am likely to get a who is that about, or I want examples from someone lol but I am not promoting negativity in any way.

I just wish things would slow down a hair as some things go from space improvement idea to its done in just a few days with only 2 or 3 people getting a chance to make an input. It is even where I think for about a minute before hitting send in response to something on the mailing list because somehow, someway someone will take it the wrong way when I had no ill intentions. Possibly we could make it a point to try and figure out a way to get people together talking about hive projects in person rather than just on the list during the saturday events and cleanups prior to taking on a task? I would love to see people get to know other members better and talk in person more so this always thinking someone meant the worst goes away as you get to better know people and realize its only input they are giving… its not an personal attack. There is just A LOT of tension at the Hive with things it seems, especially mailing list threads… So yeah we need to hug it out lol :slight_smile:
I also wanted to comment on this statement. In the last 6-9months, there has been, what I feel, a large increase in negativity towards members both in person and on the membership. I don’t blame people for not going to meetings, if they are met with negative feelings or actions when they go. I haven’t attended a meeting in quite some time, not only because of time restraints, but also because there are members there that I don’t feel comfortable seeing. If there are other members that feel this way, it’s no wonder people aren’t hanging out after meetings or discussing ways to improve the hive together. Who knows what other people will hear/say/do etc. Again, it’s exhausting and makes me feel like I’m walking on eggshells when I am there. The only time I go is during the weekdays when I know other people won’t be there. I definitely have no desire to put my time and effort into projects for the hive when I get such negative feelings being there. I get in, do any work I was going to do there, and then leave.

I also think the animosity expressed towards each other on the mailing list, whether intentionally, passive/aggressively, or unintentionally is problematic. I don’t have any suggestions other than that we should communicating like adults and trying very hard to see the best in another person’s suggestion. Not automatically assuming everything posted is an attack or directed towards a person or the initial poster specifically.

Ok, I have said more than enough here. Let’s all put our grownup pants on and act like adults. Please.

All things stated are my own opinion and not representative of any organization that I belong to → can’t believe I have to write that. :confused:

As to comment on this statement. Why do you always insist in bringing in
the courts/law when someone says something contrary to what you say? It's
exhausting. And silly. Seriously. This is a personal statement, not a
statement made on behalf of the hive leadership. And that is how it would
be interpreted.

I bring up laws because the Hive is a business, nonprofit to be specific,
and we need to follow these laws. Just because we want to act like its a
social group of people doesn't mean it isnt. We are a legal 501(c)3 and
with that comes certain responsibilities and legal aspects. Even more so we
need to follow these as a hackerspace. With the political world being where
it is, and what the term hacking means to the general public (yes i know
there is more to it than that but its how the public sees it) we can easily
be put under a microscope by multiple departments. Something I would perfer
not to happen.

"This is a public mailing list, anyone can comment anything they want. If
and when it becomes a problem, we can deal with it as an organization.
There is not a reason to involve the law or courts, it'd be a waste of time
and money and just petty. Please stop with idle comments such as these. Not
just you Daniel, But Everyone. It really does no one any good. "

This is the official message board of the hive, public or not. It is
regularly stated who are officers, board and warden, in this care Andrew
has (Woodworking Warden) in his name. I would prefer we not to have to deal
with this problem as an organization, you know by keeping the business up
and up. So I bring them up in a manner that doesn't goto court, and we can
work on fixing it before someone does bring us to court. I am saying me,
but in this world there is someone.

All of this bureaucracy and parliamentary procedure is seriously against
the principles that The Hive was founded on.

If there is a largess of funds, why aren't we talking about lowering
membership dues? Why aren't we using those funds to incentivize big
projects?

I realize that on one asked me, but I am going to say this anyway: our
focus should be on making things, not buying them. Our squabbles should be
about engineering solutions, not budgets. If two groups can't agree on what
to do, they should fork() and follow their own paths

I understand that there are some tools that you have to buy in order to
bootstrap a shop. Are we arguing about bootstrapping tools?

Fancy tools are neat and all, but making things is more important than
buying them. Hacking tools from trash is important for 3 reasons:
1. People learn and grow by building. No one learns from buying. If
something's already built, build another one, or a better one, or a
smaller/larger one.

2. People work together by building. Buying creates factions, like this
oscilloscope vs. vacuum former drama that we are currently experiencing. If
you want something, advocate for it. Build a team and go after it. Convince
someone to teach you about it. Raise funds to build it.

3. If you can build it once, you can build it again. Wrecking an expensive
laser cutter is a tragedy, wrecking a piece of trash creates an opportunity
for more hacking. The first thing you print on a 3d printer should be parts
for another 3d printer. The first thing you cut on a laser cutter should be
parts for another laser cutter. I'd rather the space have 3 shitty printers
or cutters that work, rather than one fancy tool that's always broken no
one knows how to fix it, or the one person that can is on vacation.

If you want to pay a high monthly fee for access to fancy tools, that's
what for-profit shops like TechShop and The Manufactory are for.

If you want to use your skills to help others, and have the skills of
others help you, that is what Hive13 is for. Lowering the monthly
membership dues would attract more members and add more skills to our
community.

Hive13 isn't a job that you can get fired from. IT isn't a school that you
can flunk out of. It isn't your home, where you can tell other people what
to do or go sulk in your room when others don't play nice. It isn't a
church where you become indoctrinated. It's a space where we judge and
value hackers based on their hacks, not on fake criteria like titles, age,
race or gender.

Hacking is a gift economy. You get status by contributing: code, docs,
time, teaching, art, etc. I think many of our members have either lost
sight of that, or were maybe never acquainted with the hacker ethic in the
first place.

Man, anytime a threadnaught gets long or off topic, it’s good practice to re title and un bury good information or a second conversation. Separating it out in the user base is self moderation… not a bad thing. I get off topic a good bit in the spirit of humor.

As far as legaly weasly stuff… people’s most common communication style truncates the “In my opinion,” “to the best of my knowledge,” “If I recall correctly” and “if this is true then” as a verbal shorthand… Typing fast? It carries through a bit. So… if somebody is saying something, it is normal for you to have to guess these shortcuts. It’s much the same as missing facial expressions in text. Unless you are certain somebody has carefully crafted a statement, it is usually best, in my opinion to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Then there is vocabulary… like the word “good” a word can have several different meanings… So can “official communication” Benefit of the doubt… the list serve type stuff is an official communication. Does that make it an “official communication” ? No… not without a procedural vote and issuance by the secretary of said passed motion eh? Is the mailing list uses as a proxy for the vote counting and is that official? Yup… bylaws state proxy by writing I guess… therefore an email passes that muster. Is that an official procedure? No, not specifically listed in the bylaws eh? I bet it is not. Complicated these verbal puzzles are.

So… here is the real deal with lawsuits. Either somebody has to pay a lawyer to proceed, or the lawyer has to expect a portion of the settlement that is enough to make it worth pursuing. K, assets? Nope. Materials and machinery? Nope. There is perhaps the issue of the plywood… but you are talking the realm of small claims if the wholesale instead of retail price is used… or a warrant in debt if not, for which it will cost as much to go to court, as you would get for winning outright. Getting apportioned blame? Even less money. Lawyers don’t generally work for free, or get involved for small amounts of money.

They also like to win… and a general statement of belief of status of existing rules, or an innocently incorrect one is going to be hard to prove purposefully damaging to someone. Especially if the remedy is “Oops, that was mistaken, please check the wiki… it is actually x instead” and it is put forth in a timely manner on discovery.

Is it the kind of thing to enter into the minutes and table for the yearly by law review? Sure… that is what committees are for. Gather the people that can stand staring boldly in the face of paperwork, uniform standards of text and style… and fearlessly debate the intricacies of tangled verbiage whist those not so favored can sip frosty beverages and eat yummy pizza elsewhere. Tis hard to turn from yon frosty beverages and battle the paper dragon, alas… somebody must sacrifice.

But ya gotta watch the lawsuit stuff… nice professional people with lots of experience in professional disciplines that can help us build things? They have nice houses and stuff. If nice houses and stuff are threatened by legal stuff which takes their stuff, these people usually do not stay around because they like stability and keeping their stuff safe because they have likely earned it the hard way.

Just some thoughts.

Mike

I agree 100%, Tiffany. Every other day someone is bringing lawyers and legal issues to the table. This is utterly exhausting. I don’t understand why, when NONE of us have experience in law, we feel the need to continually bring tiny points under intense scrutiny, quote laws that we don’t understand fully, and mildly threaten others /in our own community/ in passive ways using the law. This seems futile and inflammatory. (If these were serious issues… like say… embezzling money, then yes, we should definitely bring up the laws, this is not what I am getting at).

This is coming from Elly a member AND from Elly the president who concerns herself with the well-being of the whole Hive (the non-profit, the people (membership), the tools, the space, the LLC, the reputation, etc.). This mention of lawyers at the drop of a hat these days is paranoid and is frankly counterproductive: Because all of us are kind of muddling around with no real expertise, these points cannot be resolved within our repertoire of membership alone. It is causing drama and stress every few days, with no actual solution in sight.

A call to action: For those who continue to bring legal things up, and who are truly concerned about this for us as an organization, I am asking you to direct your energies in trying to find us help, rather than arguing with others, who like yourselves, don’t have a real understanding of the requirements or limitations bound by these laws. Try to find a REAL LIFE solution. Try to reach out to local lawyers or people with expertise. See if we can flex our non-profit and community status and get free or reduced help. We have talked about this so many times in the past, but no one has followed through on this because those who offered had too much on their plate already, and their attentions were needed elsewhere. This is a chance to use your energies to really make a difference. Let’s harness this energy in a positive and productive way.

Lastly, on a personal level, I’m tired of this. Our community conversations seem to continually be about minor, petty things (grammar, interpretations of a few words, clarification on simple points that turn into wide ranging arguments, etc.). I feel many aren’t looking at the big picture. We need to get back to making. awesome. things. We all do. This space is NOT about procedure (while that is important, and does need to be fixed in some aspects, it should NOT be the focus of ALL of our collective energies).

(I also agree with Chris, whose email came through while I was writing this. Thanks for another perspective.)
.

Elly

A call to action: For those who continue to bring legal things up, and who are truly concerned about this for us as an organization, I am asking you to direct your energies in trying to find us help, rather than arguing with others, who like yourselves, don’t have a real understanding of the requirements or limitations bound by these laws. Try to find a REAL LIFE solution. Try to reach out to local lawyers or people with expertise.

So I’ve talked to my lawyer in the past when things have come up, but I’m not sure what’s not clear at the present. If there’s something pending, I can run it past him.

We need to get back to making. awesome. things. We all do.

I think we’re still making awesome stuff. I think what we’re not doing is talking about those things as much as these sorts of things. You’re absolutely right it’s exhausting.

Just a quick list off the top of my head of some of the cool things that have been done in the last week or month:
I made a planer stand and installed a new outlet for it.
Greg helped me put a new chuck on the drill press, and has been working on a RFID reader for the annex.
We’ve got a brand new hose in the air hose reel.
Brad has made some cool tool holders for the lathe.
Tim G and Brad have been working very hard to get the CNC router table level.
Nancy made some excellent muffins.
Lorin threw a really cool party.
Will B made an incredible bee hive.
Ian fixed the server noise that was slowly driving everybody insane, and has been helping me fix and upgrade the wiki.
Tim W has been working on his crossbow.
John made a really cool ring for his wife on the wood lathe, and experimented with a turned mallet.
The lathe has a new light.

I’m sure there are others I’m forgetting or missed. I think we need to ignore these sorts of threads and posts and start responding on the threads where people share their awesome projects. Or we need to create new threads for discussing future awesome projects.

Makerfaire is coming up, it would be nice to have a group project for that which would encourage people to join the space.

I agree 100%, Tiffany. Every other day someone is bringing lawyers and
legal issues to the table. This is utterly exhausting. I don't understand
why, when NONE of us have experience in law, we feel the need to
continually bring tiny points under intense scrutiny, quote laws that we
don't understand fully, and mildly threaten others /in our own community/
in passive ways using the law. This seems futile and inflammatory. (If
these were serious issues.... like say... embezzling money, then yes, we
should definitely bring up the laws, this is not what I am getting at).

I consider losing our Non-profit status (something that is kept by
following non-profit laws) a serious issue.

This is coming from Elly a member AND from Elly the president who concerns
herself with the well-being of the *whole* Hive (the non-profit, the
people (membership), the tools, the space, the LLC, the reputation, etc.). *This
mention of lawyers at the drop of a hat these days is paranoid and is
frankly counterproductive:* Because all of us are kind of muddling around
with no real expertise, these points cannot be resolved within our
repertoire of membership alone. It is causing drama and stress every few
days, with no actual solution in sight.

Then lets have a leadership who follows the laws, instead of fighting to
not have to follow it. Within a month I have seen a *potential* bylaw
violation, which would not be address (the attempt to address this was just
called an attempt to gaslight by a board member) and also leadership or
representatives of leadership make *two* actions that I consider violating
Ohio non profit law, one of which a lawyer, clarified on. The other could
have been resolved by the representative acknowledging his error in wording
and moving on, now we get into an argument over legal aspects. So can we
say 100% that the bylaws were violated or have we violated Non-profit laws?
Can I say for sure? No, Why not, well only one person requested
documentation and records, and it hasn't been disclosed if he got that, if
he did then that Non-profit violation didn't happen. Without that
information, we cant tell about that potential bylaw violation. So the
paranoia is a two way street, I would say once we get back to more some
transparency alot of this will go away for multiple members, I am just the
one speaking up, (I am speaking up for myself, and not representing anyone
else here)

*A call to action:* For those who continue to bring legal things up, and
who are truly concerned about this for us as an organization, I am asking
you to direct your energies in trying to find us help, rather than arguing
with others, who like yourselves, don't have a real understanding of the
requirements or limitations bound by these laws. Try to find a REAL LIFE
solution. Try to reach out to local lawyers or people with expertise. See
if we can flex our non-profit and community status and get free or reduced
help. We have talked about this so many times in the past, but no one has
followed through on this because those who offered had too much on their
plate already, and their attentions were needed elsewhere. *This is a
chance to use your energies to really make a difference. Let's harness
this energy in a positive and productive way.*

The links below are four non-profit specialty law firms, someone who has
the rights to sign contracts such as this, for example the president,
should reach out to them and get one put on retainer (which i believe is
the correct term here). This would also help with Bylaw updates, to make
sure all of our paperwork is up to date and proper (when was the last time
we had someone look at that thinking of which) and more!

http://www.beckman-weil.com/
http://www.woodlamping.com/
http://www.manleyburke.com/
http://www.baklawfirm.net/
*Energy Harnessed *have fun

Lastly, on a personal level, I'm tired of this. Our community

I spent over a decade under threat of lawsuit for my run as Vice President of a caving club, because I had to be the one to start the process of expelling somebody very likely a true sociopath. It only ended when he passed away unexpectedly… and was part the bylaw discussions to address the specific concerns of the university and its lawyers on our procedures and language. It took forever by the way, the better part of a year if I recall. The fella was still around? Yes… nobody wanted to confront and face lawsuit. My environmental site work? Under litigation mostly… Our company did have the first UST cleanup that went to the Supreme court. I did have my field book seized by EPA enforcement. You don’t have to be a lawyer to have experience at law. We live with it everyday. It touches every aspect of our lives.

If I speak up, I usually am trying to help. If I know something, odds are I am not just blowing smoke.

The positive energy approach is the right one, otherwise the group energy dwindles and fades. Here’s the deal though as I see it: If people are threatening legal action… fine. I can almost bet there are a few student lawyers with low gpa’s that are gonna need resume fodder and like to build stuff. I bet they can ask questions in class. Sure… maybe not an official answer, but it will get you closer without spending 150 an hr.

The other makerspaces? Heck… why not host a convocation of tricky by law wrangling? I imagine older places have been through this growing pain and have input.

Other non profits? Gotta be a conference on non profit law and stuff somewhere most any month if we travel.

I think more than by laws, this is an issue of some conflict resolutions.

But getting along without having to do the rules lawyer thing depends on people behaving well, and doing what the group thinks is generally the right thing. When that breaks down, then well crafted rules are likely the only remedy.

Either that, or you have to lean in… recruit like crazy, and change the group culture.

That was unnecessarily mean. :frowning: I was trying to de-escelate the situation. I’m also trying to be productive and positive. We’re all trying the best we can, with all the energy we can muster to put towards the Hive (and sometimes more energy than is healthily available in some cases)

As I said, we’ve all got a lot on our plate (especially leadership), so much so that there isn’t time to do most of the things we are trying to do or that we should be doing. I was hoping that we could utilize some energy from members that seem to have interest in these matters, and who also seem to have the energy to follow up with this, since things keeps being brought up by a limited subset.

You my good sir… in my opinion… are not reading the law closely enough.

There are enough discretionary statements in those laws, as pointed out earlier… that there is sufficient gray area that your statements are your opinion of the worst case, and likely the situation as stated is not legally actionable in my opinion. If it does go to court? What is the remedy? The court will decide a decision to deny was invalid, order the provision of data… and that will likely be the end of the story… as denying bad applications for said data is part and parcel of the officers responsibility. Is somebody really going to spend thousands of dollars for that? Really?

And if a member sues… I mean, really, is there an expectation that their membership continue? That would be the first hole in the bylaws I would motion to plug when I plop down my 50 bucks. In fact… I think it is worth 50 bucks just to make that motion. See ya Tuesday.

:slight_smile: I keep mentioning I spent years and years as an officer in a caving club. Anyway, if you want a subcommittee that helps support the officers on the yearly by law review, I can help out with that. However, we might just have to schedule the zymurgy folks to run concurrent meetings :slight_smile: Plenty of time to gather info, and write a proposed revision or addition, and submit it to the legal eagles.