Vote for Vacuum Form Machine.

I would Like to put up a vote to order something that has been talked about on and off for a while. A Vacuum Form machine. We have a few option including building our own or buying a premade one.

From research and safety concerns I would recommend going with a premade one: The best I can find within a reasonable budget are the EZFORM SV 1217 & the EZFORM LV1827. http://www.centroform.com/home.html

The Safety Concern is that most smaller models requires a seperate heating system, most of which are bottom heated. If left unattended this can be dangerous.

If we go with a model I mentioned, all we need is the former, an electric outlet (comes in both 110-120 & 210-240V) and a shop vac.

I would like to put a voting tier for Tuesday the 14th (this gives just over 1 week and a half) in:

Vote 1 is for $2500. This would include the better model of the EZFORM ® LV 1827, shipping and a dedicated shopvac setup and any additional costs that may arise.

Vote 2 is for $2000 This would include the Smaller model of the EZFORM ® SV 1217, shipping and a dedicated shopvac setup and any additional costs that may arise.

Vote 3: is for $1000 which includes a small 12x12 vacuum table, A heating source such as a used electric stove or patio heater DIY system & any additional costs. Both of the heat sources here are bottom heated and I am not a fan of this idea.

Daniel,

First I want to say that I want a vaccume former. They are less cool than a 3D printer, but significantly more useful. And at the same time, having both make each one even better.

At the same time, I'm likely going to have to vote no right now. We just authorized $1400 in it equipment. We have a request for about $2000 coming to replace a scope that left with a member. Another $2500 for a vac form isn't financially responsible right now in my opinion.

Our income in dues is about $2400 a month. Fixed expenses have been around $1275. We just added the annex, that works out to about $300 that is ping to be a new expense. The monthly warden budget for consumables/etc. is $200. So that puts monthly expenses at about $1775. That gives us $625 a month we can spend on everything else. If we have no other expenditures, we have spent the budget till roughly June. Assuming we spend no other money.....

But if you want to bring this up in June, or find an alternate funding source (knock over a bank, etc.), then I'll be super for it!

i didnt realize we had authorized 1400$ in server upgrades. missed that vote!

as far as a vacuum former vs the oscilloscope goes - why does one piece of equipment take priority over another Will? For me, I’d much prefer to see the money spent on a vacuum former (which I’d use) than an oscilloscope (which I would never use and don’t see why we should purchase). Personally, I’d be all for getting a vacuum former (check out this link as to why: http://makezine.com/2016/03/20/can-you-fix-your-own-teeth-with-3d-printed-retainers/).

as far as budget goes, I thought we had decided that we were going to make a yearly budget before alloting any other large purchases - I have yet to see a budget being proposed, and we have already spent quite a bit of money this year on purchases. So, if you are going to make the argument that we shouldn’t spend the money on one piece of equipment due to being fiscally savvy, than I’d make the same argument back that we shouldn’t spend the money on a piece of newer equipment, when we have an existing older one that works just fine.

To me, logically, it makes sense to spend the money on a piece of equipment we don’t have access to at the hive, rather than on a fancier, newer model of something we already have.

feel free to explain why my logic is unsound. Personally, I will continue to vote no on all proposals until I see a sound yearly budget proposed and implemented. Even if I think a vacuum former would enhance the Hive.

Tiffany

Before just shutting him out on his proposal maybe we can take a step back and look at the bigger picture though. That oscilloscope never belonged to the hive it was Dave's. So it didn't just walk out it got returned to it's owner.

We also have 30K in the bank and although a healthy savings is responsible, having too large of an uninvested amount is Irresponsible. We can responsibly go down to around 10K which would still give us nearly 6 months assuming every single member stopped paying dues, which we all know is unlikely.

Now if you feel the money could be better spent repairing things, upgrading other things which are more important. Then maybe this may be an ideal time to submit these votes for membership for them to decide.

Now that I have that out, sell me on this vacuum former. Tell me what the plans are for it, where would you put it, why those 3 models, etc!

i didnt realize we had authorized 1400$ in server upgrades. missed that vote!

Last Tuesday we authorized Ian to buy enough HDDs to up the storage of the Hive servers to 23 TB.

For me, I’d much prefer to see the money spent on a vacuum former (which I’d use) than an oscilloscope (which I would never use and don’t see why we should purchase).

An oscilloscope is a pretty fundamental piece of electronics equipment. Since we no longer have one, and used to, buy one seems reasonable to me, and a higher priority. I’m not opposed to a vacuum former, but it’s new capability rather than replacement for essential equipment we used to have.

as far as budget goes, I thought we had decided that we were going to make a yearly budget before alloting any other large purchases - I have yet to see a budget being proposed, and we have already spent quite a bit of money this year on purchases.

A budget might (or might not) be an equitable way to manage the finances. This is the first I’ve heard discussion of a budget, maybe another thread on the mailing list is a good way to advance this?

the budget was brought up at leadership meetings in december and january.

i understand that people use an oscilloscope. However, in the original proposal, I seem to remember them stating that we no longer had one that wasn’t a dinosaur. So it is not that we don’t have one. It is that we don’t have a new enough one.

Bump for more discussion on the vacuum form machine proposal.

Bump for more discussion on the vacuum form machine proposal.

I’m all in favor of getting the larger unit. I can see a whole bunch of uses for this type of equipment. Our budget be damned… actually, our account looks pretty good right now… enough to run the place for a year without any additional funding, so it doesn’t bother me one bit to spend to get something nice.

Bill

Lol and we have the tig welder vote coming up to :frowning:

I believe Bill is saying we have the funds for this purchase AND others. We have the funds to operate for many months even if almost everyone quit.

Unless there is a larger committed plan to save for something that is more than anything we have ever done (like a move or building purchase) I can’t see a reason for a spending freeze on member wanted tools. Having several months of reserves is more than enough as long as we keep a positive cash flow on fixed expenses.

I don’t know much about vacuum form machines, basically just what little can be gleaned from watching them being used on mythbusters, but it seems like a cool piece of equipment with a high usefulness to square-footage ratio. I’m leaning toward a “yes” on one of them, just not sure which one yet.

  • Ian B.

I have not looked at the models listed yet…
But that much money and you still have to buy a shopvac for it?
But what about building one for less?
And where will it go when not in use?

As someone who has done some ‘poor man’s vacuforming’ down at the Hive, I can see some projects where I would use this. But the cost seems kind of high - Again, I haven’t looked at the links yet to see what the features are of those models - I will have to look at them.

I have not looked at the models listed yet...
But that much money and you still have to buy a shopvac for it?

The cost I have for vote includes the vacuum. but the unit includes the
heating elements vacuum plate etc.

But what about building one for less?

Nowhere near the quality, there are patterns out there and that is
basically vote 3. My big concern over this is a few things including
safety. First it would take nearly double the space, the ones for vote have
the heater above the vacuum table. Build one and it would be a separate
item. If you leave plastic on the heater too long it will melt into the
heater, and could start a nasty fire, spewing chemicals in the air, so one
forgetful person, and we have a bad fire. (With the first 2 options ones,
if it over heats the plastic covers the vacuum table and we have a bitch of
a clean up.) Second, one we make would be out of wood, this has about a
tenth of the life as a metal one. Also the learning curve is alot lower

And where will it go when not in use?

The LV 1827 Unit measures : 30 " high x 35 " long x 21 " wide. so a
21 "wide area of a table, hell i think this can fit on the cabinets in the
fablab. Just like the 3d printers, you dont need to move it.

As someone who has done some 'poor man's vacuforming' down at the Hive, I
can see some projects where I would use this. But the cost seems kind of
high - Again, I haven't looked at the links yet to see what the features
are of those models - I will have to look at them.

        EZFORM ® SV 1217 VACUUM FORMING MACHINE
         Specifications:
Unit measures : 28 " high x 25 " long x 16 " wide
Plastic sheet size : 15 1/4 " x 20 1/4 "
Forming area : 12 " x 17 "
Weight : 48 lbs
Heater : 1500 Watts
Voltage : 110-120 ( Also available in 210 - 240 volts single phase )
Max. depth of draw 7 inches depending on mold Geometry
Vacuum Ports : 1 1/2 " and and 3/8 "

EZFORM ® LV 1827 VACUUM FORMING MACHINE
Unit measures : 30 " high x 35 " long x 21 " wide
Plastic sheet size : 21 1/4 " x 30 1/4 "
Forming area : 18 " x 27 "
Weight : 65 lbs
Voltage : 110-120 ( Also available in 210 - 240 volts single phase )
Max. depth of draw 9 -11 inches depending on mold Geometry
Vacuum Ports : 1 1/2 " and and 3/8 "
Heater : 1500 Watts x 2 ( 3000 Watts Total )

Major differences, twice the heat, 4 inches deeper draw. & larger forming
area.

- Daniel

Something I hadn’t thought of… is the cost of the sheets.

The larger machine will have more expensive plastic sheets… and if your parts are not that big, then you’d be potentially waisting a bunch with each use.

Can you give me an idea of the cost to feed one of these? (Or is there an option to use smaller sheets on the larger machines?) (Perhaps, that would be our first investment/invention… a way to do exactly that.

Bill

As far as using smaller sheets, I have seen vacuum formers with the ability to accept different size frames.

The smaller frame size accommodates smaller sheets.

Do the proposed units allow for different frames?

A vacuu-form sounds like fun. I like fun.

Good question, I dont know. I have emailed the company to ask.

Their official answer is: Hi Daniel ,

Our vacuum forming machines come with one size frame for the plastic , the frame is adjustable for different thicknesses, but the correct size plastic must be used .

You can form multiple smaller molds at the same time

Now this is something I’d be willing to take a Crack at the hive building (custom frames.)

I would absolutely love to have a vacuum former down at the hive. But regrettably, I don’t think I would be able to vote yes for it at this time.

It’s not just about costs, but space. Being the ex-warden for the fablab, We just don’t have the room in the fablab for the vacuum former without finding new homes for the printer and computers, and you’d still be squishing all the printers together. Let alone the extra spaces needed for the pump or shop vac. Combined with this being pretty noisy, I don’t think the vacuum former would be suitable in the fablab. I know we just got this new space, but with water issues in there and the time it takes to actually utilize the space, I feel like the vacuum former would bounce around a lot with no real home. Honestly I would have felt better about voting for a vacuum former if we voted for it after the new room started to get utilized to give more options for where we could put it.

As mentioned, the material is a bit of a problem as well. I spent 30 mins trying to find plastic to fit the first two machines, and these are the only two results I could find.
1217: Plastic sheet size: 15 1/4"x20 1/4"
1827: Plastic sheet size: 21 1/4’‘x30 1/4’’
So we need to buy these packs, or cut them down to utilize them in either of these machines. I was hoping I could find a vendor that sold sheets to specifications, but I couldn’t find one (not saying they are not out there, just couldn’t find them). It would be nice to have sheets on hand, but we’ve seen that the hive does not want to store materials for machines, nor do we want to have members buying the materials and selling them to members. If we were to get either of these machines, the only option I see is to allocate new space for vacuum form materials, or use the wood storage area for storing sheets (however the 1217 sheets would be able to fit in a standard membership storage box).

Another issue would be how much power it draws. I’m not an electrician, but we’ve had problems with the kernel compiler because of it’s heating element kicking on. I feel like we would have these same issues with the heating element of the vacuum former, and I’d like us to make sure we won’t have any issues with this before we put money down on it.

My biggest fear about getting a vacuum former right now would be that we get one, and if people can’t utilize it right away, people will regret buying it, and neglect it. This sort of thing kind of killed the energy around the big laser cutter when it arrived because it took a few months for us to even run power over to it, let alone getting it up and running.

If the vote does fail, but if people are still interested in having one, I wouldn’t mind helping take a crack at building a vacuum former. We can build it to the size we want, we can create custom frames for different sized thermoplastic, build a sturdy frame (some reviews keep telling me that the 1827’s frame isn’t very rigid). Plus it’ll be an excuse for me to use what I’m learning in project management =)