VOTE: Dust Collector Replacement - $11,000

What -

Buy a used Nederman S1000 10Hp 5000 cfm baghouse style Dust Collector. Used – Target Cost $11,000 – New is $13,500 or more.

Note: Tom Treer and Dave Velzy are tracking multiple used units – We hope to beat this cost.

The used DCs come with a starter and inlet ductwork. Costs range from $3,800 to $10,500 delivered.

https://www.nederman.com/en-us/pws-catalog/p/s-filters/s-series-dust-collector

Why – The Laguna X-Plus 5 installed in January 2024 performed well on installation, but has become a maintenance nightmare. The filter clogs quickly and defies cleaning. When clogged, suction drops significantly. Replacement filters cost $550 and do not last long. There is no practical fix.

Dust Collection Background – Small DC’s (like what we have now) need blast gates in the ducts because they don’t have enough cfm suction to operate all of the machines at the same time. Downside – You need to open and close blast gates – Too many open – It doesn’t clear the chips. When all the blast gates are closed, you can collapse the ducts. So this kind of operation often has very strong ducts. (Hive13 doesn’t and yes, we have collapsed the ducts.)

Industrial sized DC’s have enough suction to clear chips from all of the machines at the same time.

The S1000 10Hp unit pulls 5000 cfm through a 15.75” duct. This should collect the dust from up to eight machines simultaneously. Most machines will not have a blast gate. Because the ducts are open, there won’t be as much static pressure and we can continue to use HVAC gauge ducting. (what we already have) Note: We should install a 12” Static Pressure Regulating Damper ( doggy door )

If we go with a smaller capacity DC that requires blast gates, we probably will need stronger ducts to resist the suction when all blast gates are closed. Estimate $6000 for that stronger ductwork. The crazy thing is that an industrial capacity DC allows us to get away with weaker ducts.

The Nederman S1000 uses plastic bags similar to the shop fox DC. We can make bins to replace the bags.

Why did we buy Laguna? Price and performance specifications – And we were happy with the other Laguna equipment in the shop. At the time, we only had 220V 1 Ph power.
What are the alternatives? Obviously Laguna is out of the question.

Considered Alternatives -

Oneida:

Oneida was contacted for an analysis and quote. The Oneida Analysis Costs $400, but you don’t get their plan unless you buy the DC and duct work from Onieda.

The Oneida quote at $18.6K requires two separate 7.5hp cyclones for equal cfm to the Nederman S1000. The Oneida cyclones require frequent cleaning with compressed air from the outside of the filter. There are four filters in the pair of Oneida units.

Donaldson:

In 2023 we got a quote from Advanced Air before buying the Laguna. That quote was for a Donaldson size 24 Cyclone with 7.5 HP motor - 2,460 CFM @ 10.25” w.g. - Cyclone discharge to 55 gal. drum

Cost for the cyclone $8,400. Design work for ducting was $2920. – It was too tall to fit in our space.

Oneida Filter Maintenance Weekly – Minimum

Use a hand-held, compressed air nozzle at < 90 PSI to blast air along the filter’s exterior pleats. Hold the air nozzle at least 2" away from the filter. Closer blasts will damage the filter material.

Wait a few minutes for dust to settle then remove the Fine Dust Bin at the bottom of the Filter by loosening the eight 5/16"-18 Thumb Nuts (H5) and eight 5/16"-18 J-Bolts (H4). Dispose of dust carefully and then reconnect the Fine Dust Bin. Note each 7.5 hp unit has TWO filters = 16 bolts

The four Replacement Filters 18" x 62" Stacking Spunbond Filters #FCK186200 $465 each Plus shipping. = $ 1,860 – Replacement? – No one knows

Recommended cleaning of the Nederman unit is:

During normal operation and even after cleaning, a small dust layer remaining on the inside of the bags assists in the collection.

Fine dust that cannot be blown out will become deposited/trapped in the filter fabric. Therefore, the filter bag will lose its efficiency over time due to these deposits in the fabric. In applications with a high fine dust concentration, the filter bags should be cleaned mechanically through “beating”, “shaking” or via optional shaker systems. Replacement bags $42 each x 24 = $1008 – Bags are expected to last a long time – 3-5 Years per manufacturer.

I vote yes

Yes vote

Yes. We need this.

Yes please

I vote yes!

Can someone elaborate on why we would bother saving 20% buying a used unit for $11,000 vs. new for $13500? That doesn’t seem like a good deal considering dust collectors are essentially continuously “abused” by dealing with abrasive friction causing contamination. (dust) My personal rule of thumb is that the bidding on used tools starts at 50% new value unless there is a documentable chain of custody since it was new to establish the condition of the used unit.

Is there a warranty included with new units?

Is there a warranty included with a used unit? Can an additional warranty be added to a used unit? Is this a concern or is this budgeted as a tool that will continually require money pumped into it for maintenance?

If this has already been discussed, link me to meeting notes.

-Dave

I vote yes.

I vote Yes.

My concerns about the value of used vs. new were addressed in a discussion on Slack.
TL;DR: this vote is for a PROJECT. The used dust collector is one piece of the costs as opposed to the primary/total cost. The difference in price used vs. new is smaller because only a portion of the project has any savings from used equipment.

The old system is only a year old. Is there a warranty with it at all?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the system we have isn’t “broken” as much as underperforming and high maintenance. If it was completely broken, warranty service may be a more clear cut affair. Warranties also typically provide for repair or replacement. We don’t want the current system replaced with a brand new version of it that has the same problems. From what I understand, fundamental design problems are why we are wanting the current system replaced with something else. It’s not a matter of a simple repair to make the system do what it is supposed to. We’re not going to get a refund for the current system as part of warranty service.

Has anyone contacted the manufacturer of our current system to see if they will buy it back in order to avoid a whole bunch of nasty press / social media exposure?

In situations like this where it kind of works and kind of fails to perform as advertised, we land in a messy middle ground where lawyering up and suing would probably be necessary to get a desired outcome ($$$ to buy a different system / buyback old system) because our current system is quite functional under a limited definition of the word function.

I sure as hell don’t want to be responsible or involved in suing a manufacturer to try to get them to do something about a defective system. Such an energy drain.

Hey Blundar, there are multiple “Used” options we are in the process of pursing but $11,000 is the ceiling and represents a “Show” unit that is in near new condition and includes shipping and the initial run of 16" ducting which is a major expense. A new unit “Starts” at $13,500 but does not include shipping or the initial run of 16" ducting after which we’d be closer to the $16,000 price point.

As far as the warranty goes some of the newer/ tradeshow units might still have a bit of warranty but this is not a given. As mentioned in the post the cost and more importantly man-hours associated with corrective maintenance for this units is less than the other available options.

I believe the warranty expired at 6 months and does not cover filters ($500 a piece) which is the current weak link in the performance chain for this device.

I vote yes. This is essential.

I vote yes!

Thanks for the additional information, George. I vote yes.

I vote YES

I vote Yes.

I vote “yes”

I vote yes