Proposed vote on a personal information privacy policy

Fortunately for me, I’ve missed most of this conversation. Most everyone here will ignore my input, but, in line with everyone else, I feel obligated to share my thoughts.

At one point in time, there was a publicly available ledger of who had sent a paypal payment, when the last payment had been received, and a list of their email addresses. I’m not certain if it was common knowledge, but, it was on a server (and as far as I can recall, on a server without a username and password restriction). This was semi-public information in the beginning, and was up until I left as president, so, why has it been restricted or the service not replicated when the former colo’ed server was removed from service?

One of the things that made hive13 attractive to me was transparency and the open culture of the space, and honestly; I am extremely disappointed that the current leadership has chosen to go down this slope of private meetings, silo’ed conversations, and the perception of a hostile board of directors. I continue to support hive13 because I believe in the educational and community benefits of having a hackerspace and regardless of where I’m physically located, the benefits that hive13 brings to Cincinnati.

If you have issues with your email address and a date of when you last made your payment, I strongly suggest that you move to a place like the Manufactory, and I’m sure they’ll be more than glad to take your business. If you believe in an open culture that is based upon learning, education, and sharing, by all means, feel free to stay a member here. I think that a policy like this is anti-hive, and if it does come up for a vote, I will vote “no,” either in person or by proxy. With that said, I have no issues with my name, email address, and payment information being released. Hell, for the purposes of openness and transparency, I’ll paste my 2016 records myself:



Yes, you missed the part where it was shown that the physical addresses of members were requested as part of a formal request to see the corporation rolls the day before Coy’s property was to be removed after he had failed to do so for months.


Again, I have no issues with that – quite a few members have been to my home in Cincinnati and y’all are more than welcome to come and visit me in Miami or DC.

If you have issues with being transparent in your interactions with hive13 or other members, then it is my belief that you are in the wrong place.


In what manner am I not transparent in my interactions? Please provide details.

As for home addresses, generally giving them out, or seeking them out (often referred to as doxxing) is a serious breach of privacy. I’m not sure if you’re aware of all the problems that come along with giving out home addresses to anybody upon request, and as men generally they aren’t as worrisome for us. Usually we’re not the ones who are stalked or otherwise physically harassed.

Personally I’d be more concerned about a potential "swat"ting than the random pizza deliveries, or another annoyances.

It’s very worrisome to me that you seem to feel that giving out such personal information right at a time when a member is openly threatening to sue and is likely to pursue other avenues is appropriate.

Do you also feel that transparency is so important that you feel that the home addresses of police officers should be given to the people they’re in the process of arresting? If so, I think that you and I have very different ideas about how to balance transparency and other considerations. This isn’t like a visit from a friend, this is something else entirely.

Finally, I’m concerned about your own admitted lack of attention in this. You’re a bit like the guy who comes into the theater at the end of Die Hard and wants to know why John McClain has just let go of Hans Gruber, suggesting that maybe he should have done something else.


WHOA, calm it down, that was a little intense… Ian Wilson has been a member of the hive for a LONG while and has helped out A TON. Going at him just for how he feels is not right, let him speek his mind.


My own lack of attention is because of three things:

1.) I’m a fairly busy guy. I work anywhere between 60-90 hours a week
2.) I don’t live and work in the same city – I have a 2.5 hour flight, one way, to get to my job.
3.) I do also volunteer on top of my work.

I check my hive13 email address maybe once a week, and I keep it up so that I can follow up on an organization that I happily support even though I’m not in town to use the facilities. I’m also on the hive13 IRC network basically constantly, and while the banter there is completely different than the banter on the mailing list, it allows me to keep in touch with friends and other members who I’ve met at my time at the hive.

You can be as concerned as you feel appropriate as necessary as my “lack of attention” to this matter. Honestly, I’ll place it in the emotional place that I put the junk mail that accumulates in my condo’s mailbox once a month or so when I collect my mail.

Once you’re done being concerned, go research Section 1702 of Ohio’s non profit law, specifically:

1702.13: A) The corporation shall maintain a record of its members containing the name and address of each member, the date of admission to membership, and, if members are classified, the class to which the member belongs.

The word “shall” in there indicates that it’s not something that hive13 should not do. This record that contains the “name and address” of each member, would be considered “general records” under hive13’s bylaws, and are subject to being requested by any current member. Go ahead, request mine – it’s in a file folder somewhere at the hive, or, maybe even digitized and stored somewhere under the secretary’s choosing.

If you’re truly concerned about your privacy of your address, you have a choice: you can give hive13 a fake address, or, you can withdraw from being a member of the space.

The hive cannot vote in bylaws that are contrary to the law, but, the hive can change the bylaws that allow members to openly inspect the records, including membership information. If you don’t like this, focus your anger on changing the bylaws, not playing internet warrior with someone whom you’ve never met.


My original request was not for an address. It was for a name and possibly email. After leadership decided to be so secretive I asked for information that looked to be available after reading the bylaws. I really don’t care about anyone’s address, phone number, etc. I’d just like to know who our members are and if they have been paying like everyone else. I believe this is a very reasonable request. If you would like to continue to focus on the physical address part go ahead. That’s the best way to cover up the real issues.


We currently have a website which openly discloses finances and also allows
raw data download. Anyone can reference this from anywhere.


What I’m commenting on is more than our finances – this is about our records, something that is considered a record and a core part of the openness that is our makerspace.

Coy’s request notwithstanding, from my perception, it seems that the email thread that started this request is contrary to the spirit of openness that has always been a fundamental part of hive13. Regardless of the records that are requested, we have written it into our bylaws that the data should be open and available to members who ask that information.

If you’re not comfortable with that, then work on changing the bylaws.


Which I believe was the purpose of this thread, change of bylaws. Who has or does not have membership seems to be a distraction from the question at hand, can anybody request the private information of members, including their home addresses.

FWIW, here’s my cut n paste.

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So I did a look at the rules as well, and keep in mind I’m not a lawyer, but this is what I dug up and I’ll state my opinion.

To add on to Ian’s message, here’s another part of ohio’s laws that pertains to this situation. I will bold and underline the relevant parts and discuss them below the quote::

"1702.15 Corporation to keep books and records of account and minutes of proceedings.

Each corporation shall keep correct and complete books and records of account, together with minutes of the proceedings of its incorporators, members, directors, and committees of the directors or members. Subject to limitations prescribed in the articles or the regulations upon the right of members of a corporation to examine the books and records, all books and records of a corporation, including the membership records prescribed by section 1702.13 of the Revised Code, may be examined by any member or director or the agent or attorney of either, for any reasonable and proper purpose and at any reasonable time."

So, Ian is correct, we shall keep a record of a members:



Date of Admission

Member classification (Elite, Full, cornerstone)

1702.15 is the part that states any member may request these records. So as a corporation, this is something we must do.

The Kicker is the “Subject to limitations prescribed in the articles or the regulations upon the right of members” which, as I read it (please correct me if i’m wrong), means that if we have it stated otherwise in our laws, these are the rules that we must follow. Unfortunately, we do not have this stated anywhere, and thus we need to follow what is stated in 1702.15.

Here’s my opinion. Anyone should have the right to request any of our records for a reasonable purpose DESPITE what we might percieve the intentions are. It’s the law, and we are obligated to follow it. HOWEVER, as someone who has had issues with another member down at the hive, I can personally vouch for not wanting my personal information up for any member to request. I believe an OPT-IN program is perfectly reasonable and (as i can see) fits well within our legal rights. I assume that this was the point of Jim bringing up the vote, to decide whether to incorporate an OPT-IN program or ALL information.

This thread has been derailed by strong personal opinions and semantics. Lets try to keep our opinions unbiased. I welcome opinions on the matter, but there has been a line crossed when we start aggressively finger point (I’m assuming everyone is aggressively pointing at their screen while writing up their reply, myself included). Lets all just take a healthy step back from the mailing list, take a walk, and enjoy the brisk air before you hit the send button, kay guys? Lets stop making drama, and start making (breaking) things.

And please, if any information that I provided is wrong, please inform me. My legal translation skills are weak.

After reviewing what Dustin wrote, I believe that the current by-law revision proposal would not appropriately encompass the above and would need to be rewritten to appropriately comply with 1702.15

Again, check the last section of the sentence for the disclaimers and exceptions… Basically, if the bog, or officers deny a request, usually there is a alternate procedure, a public vote will do. Automatic motion next public meeting on denial to allow the request, 2/3 to overrule. PIA yes… but when my group went through bylaw hell, that was one of the main sticking points in general on officer level decisions vs votes, there had to be a clear appeal, or alternate process usually resulting in a direct vote.

The easy way out for people who like address privacy is a PO box. Pia… but then it is not the home location. In today’s age? Hell a cell number might suffice… Mailing addresses were the only way to find somebody when Roberts Rules first hit the press… phones and interwebs being not even a dream. Likely take another 50 years for law to update. Ah well.

And another thing… I thought in some way Sad Bee was separate from the Hive13… So if I join a membership at Hive13… I am not buying a share of Sad Bee nor am on the board of governors? Because if the Sad Bee is separate… then unless you are on the BOG then you have no standing to request records. Harsh eh? But that’s the law :slight_smile: I had thought the two were separate in some way, perhaps a liability shield? I dunno, Something I was curious about before plonking down 50 a month was my share of liability in the accidents of others. (Yeah, call me paranoid… but I did teach caving over a decade and the silly stuff people do) Something to ponder.

In the meantime, motion to postpone all blarney until regular bylaw review and head out for pizza and beer??

I love you all. I’m not an active member, but I have a lot of respect for your organization… and I’ve been on this mailinglist for years.

I have no dog in this hunt… but I have some observations.

I see a lot of talk suggesting that the writer isn’t the villain so it must be the other guy.

I suspect there isn’t a villain. Just different perspectives on privacy and policy.

In order to respect privacy and the integrity of the vote I’d have couple of technical suggestions.

  1. While the organization may be required to keep a complete list of membership… I can’t believe that it is obligated to share that list and all it’s details with any and all. My memory of my service in a non-profit was that officers addresses were public, but I don’t think other members were obligated. (I might be wrong.)
  2. I’d suggest that the official membership list be private, but a public directory be created, with strict usage requirement policies, and membership encouraged. Violation of the Usage policies could lead to a termination of membership or a blocking of future access to the directory.
  3. For major elections… each ACTIVE member member in good standing will be assigned a unique and tracked ‘voter id’. When placing a vote, the voterID, is used.
  4. If any member is concerned with the legitimacy of an election, they can get a list of the voterID that were tied to a given vote. (Not the votes themselves, just that they did vote in that election.
  5. If a user is concerned about the legitimacy of the vote, they can request the identity of a small number of names, email, phone tied to specific voterIDs. This number would be large enough to do some basic statistical analysys, but not large enough to drive any effective mailing list.
  6. If the user found error in a sample audit, a process for reviewing the vote can be determined.
  7. While the votes themselves are secret, any user can request a confirmation of how THEIR vote was tabulated if they feel the totals are suspect.

I believe a process like this would satisfy the intent of allowing users to verify the vote and allowing users access to a shared directory. It would complicate the voting process, but I think the additional security will serve to insure the reputation of the Hive moving forward, which is a real value.

On a more… parental note. I constantly tell my daughters to consider themselves fish in a fish tank. Any mess you make, you have to swim in. If you say something mean, or cold, or snarky… you aren’t just putting that on your target, you are spraying it in your room. It gets on them, people around them, and ultimately you.

Be nicer… don’t just tell people they are wrong, tell them where you agree, remind them you respect their position, remind them you appreciate their service or membership.

Fill your fish tank with beauty not crap.

And if the other guy IS an ass… the meanest thing you can do is not give them the power to ruin your fish tank or day.

Tony Wilson

Well said.

Healthy debate can be a good thing, but once it turns into a poo flinging fest it becomes destructive.

The Hive is still a great place to do things, if you step back, 99% of it is still the same. In fact, I think it is getting better in spite of all the adventures. Classes are more frequent and the equipment is improving.

I showed one of my non-grey haired friends around the Hive and he was excited/impressed about the place.


Well said, Tony, thank you.