New Thread -- Coy's request

I have attached a copy of the email request for all.

Feel free to take a look.

Here’s what the chronology of events looks like:

  1. The request was simply an email with subject: “membership list” and body: “Is this something you can provide?”

  2. This does not seem like a well formed request, however it is our duty as leadership to take any request of the membership seriously. Jim, therefore, responded promptly, and asked for the rationale behind the request.

  3. Coy responded that he wished to “socialize ideas”. The use of socialize as a transitive verb is either an awkward usage of English, or invokes the transitive verb definition of socialize: [with object] Make (someone) behave in a way that is acceptable to their society. Either way, this does not constitute a reasonable request, nor a clear rationale in my opinion.

  4. I responded that we have a tacit agreement to uphold member privacy. (to be clear tacit means - “understood or implied without being stated.”)

  5. Coy’s next email then invoked the bylaws.

Feel free to read.

On the record now, here is what I suggested when discussing this with leadership:

As far as a 2 year audit goes:

Provide access to all documents needed to show ethical and transparent operation of the corporation. Primarily, accounts, minutes, board meeting minutes, etc.

However, member names and emails should be redacted and replaced with a number. This prevents bias, and also protects member identities. If an accounting or financial error is found, it can be resolved at that point by the treasurer, and member – who would then determine whether to provide names and other details.

Myself and other leadership wish to proceed fairly. However, I also feel it would be irresponsible for me not to state that this request appears disingenuous and unclear.

I believe that Coy is frustrated with recent events at Hive13, and that this request is simply a muck-raking effort, and an attempt to gaslight both the leadership and the membership.

When one examines any singular issue, one must also look at the larger pattern. The pattern here is clear – Coy is at odds with hive13 after a series of disappointments, most notably votes to remove his safes, and then a vote to remove his plywood.

Finally, the allegations of dues in arrears and accounting fraud were NOT mentioned in his requests or conversation with leadership. Yet again, Coy is trying to validate a request ex-post-facto by “raising the stakes”.

Bylaws and accounts aside. This is manipulative behavior, and now shows a clear intent to deceive.

If indeed, Coy’s initial motivation was to audit accounts which were reasonably supsect, it was not stated. Therefore, this is a lie by omission. It is also a bad-faith request.

To ask for a membership list for mere correspondence and communication, but to then use it to incite allegations of fraud and dishonesty is a social manipulation.

Further, the cry of conspiracy, and the assertion that he is in fact the individual wronged is a classic case of gaslighting.

“Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or members of a group, hoping to make targets question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target’s belief.[1][2]”

Yes, that’s from Wikipedia – feel free to look it up.

Yes, I am clearly accusing Coy of social misbehavior and manipulation. Yes, I am escalating. I am also pointing out the circular logic and fallacy that needs to be made visible.

Now, I expect an impassioned response that further drags us away from real issues and incites yet more disorder. Feel free.

OR

Coy, if you are so displeased with Hive13, its leadership, and its members, then why do you want to continue your membership? Clearly you have not been getting your way here for a while on many matters.

Our meeting minutes are on the wiki. Our corporate documents are on the wiki. The finances are on the open finance site Ian made. Clearly, transparency is already a priority and something we strive for. We are also willing to release further information of any non-personal nature. I am not against fairness here.

I am simply stating what I see beyond the petty and small details of this distracting, embarrassing and distasteful argument. I see an overall pattern of deceitful and contemptible behavior which is hurtful to other members, and a complete waste of everyone’s time.

“If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.”

Once again, this is not about CNC, wood, classes, ideas, safes, or records. This is simply about a member continually asserting his power over others and, hence, disrupting our community of friends, and making a community of willing and generous people mistrust themselves and others. It is shameful.

Regretfully,

Lorin E. Parker

[H13LEAD] Re_ Membership list - sheepslinky@gmail.pdf (69.6 KB)

Seems like some stuff got cut off on that pdf. Here is a fresh reprint.

[H13LEAD] Re_ Membership list - sheepslinky@gmail.pdf (86.4 KB)

Not seeing anybody mention not putting the original request on the mailing list, or asking in person. Since this exchange is from Jan 21st it would appear that he had plenty of time to follow up his original request with a personal request to membership via the mailing list, a meeting, or in person.

I also find it disturbing that while he originally says he only wants names, he reverts this in the follow up email while requesting all the information on membership for the past two years, including a request for physical addresses:
“According to our bylaws we should have information on each member including their name, address, contact information for electronic receipt of communications”

(Emphasis mine)

I’m not aware of any purpose to which a physical address can be used to validate that a member is paid in full, while it does open all members to a variety of abuse, including stalking and other harassment perhaps with the intention to intimidate. Further full names can be used to quickly determine this information for any property owners via the Hamilton County Auditor’s site, or similar sites in other counties.

I find this whole conversation mildly amusing and concerning at the same time.

It’s no secret that Lorin and I share a special love for one another. One thing that I find disturbing is the alternate facts that Lorin prefers to spread. If we all choose to fill in our own blanks without communicating we can all spin a story any way we choose. Maybe he’s gunning for a position in Washington, who knows.

I’ve never had a proposal voted down. I’ve had several close and one tabled vote where Lorin was on the opposing side so maybe it’s not me that actually holds the grudge. He says I may be upset about things like moving my plywood but I clearly voted to move it out on the last vote that could have kept it there. Sure I’d have liked a different situation but I was totally against membership having to have any funds involved. I voted for what I felt was best for the group, not myself.

I’m not sorry for not having complete blind trust in our entire leadership team. I believe many of them are great individuals. I do not believe that anything egregious has happened but is there harm in being open, transparent, and communicating? I am all for keeping everyone’s email from getting spammed or unwanted calls happening. Let’s find a way to resolve this. But at the end of the day if you aren’t comfortable with people knowing that you are a member and have actual rights to the space that’s an issue IMO. We are a COMMUNITY space and if you don’t want people to know your name then I’m not sure you belong here. If membership votes we are OK with some members/officers getting free dues then that’s the way it goes. I just feel as a current paying member we have a right to know what’s actually happening.

Lorin and any other member can make up or say anything they want about me. I have big shoulders and am not trying to hide anything. We should do what is right by our members. It’s my belief that being open about our books and membership is the first step.

Ok… I responded on the other board but just read this one.

Given what my wife and I had gone through with a previous member I believe that having a system to see just first names, initals, or people be assigned a member number would be best for books visable to members at large. However for our legal reasons I believe we need to tighten up when member forms/ long term waivers are filled out. There are a bunch of legal things I can think of and take to long to list them all.

If we have a means to reach out to members not on the mailing list, as well as ask those who are already on the list want to be on a contact form. This should be something completely different than anything with book keeping and information kept private. However I’m sure that our mailing list will still yield the best way to communicate ideas or make contact about something.

Possibly to throw out any idea of adirection of the hive to look at a physical board at the hive to post ideas or info. That way it reaches non mailing list members?

At the end of the day we might have members that do so solely to help support the hive and do not use the space at all. They choose not to be active and just want to donate each month. Then on the other hand a lot of people that do not use the list catch up on things somehow. Whether they make it to every meeting or one every now and then those who vote do so when they find out. So if wanting to discuss a direction or vote of some type not already on the table, good ole time and reason should be put into things.

When it comes to seeing who has paid and who has not “to be capable of voting” it will just take time to prepare and implement the system we use. That way an esablished format is used and it’s no more, no less will be given beyond what we set as a group.

I have surgery coming up I believe on the 27th but they are trying to move it sooner. I’m going to be down for a little bit with what’s going on and do not know what meeting I’ll be able to make it to next.

-Kevin

All I’m saying is that you have never seen Batman and I in the same room . . .

:bat:

I’ve never had a proposal voted down.

No, but it’s not really about that, nor did Lorin say that. It seems pretty disingenuous to suggest that this has anything to do with that final vote. Rather you’ve done everything in your power to avoid having the take home your CNC and then the plywood. You ignored numerous private requests, and forced us to follow up by having a more public vote. Once this vote had passed you continued to drag your feet on removing the plywood, and attempt to undermine the will of the organization. This included implying you were going to go to leadership, getting another vote, working on a proposal that never got proposed, and finally getting extremely angry and making vague legal threats to sue for damages when we enforced the vote to have it removed. The angry outbursts and the vague threats are definitely part of a pattern of coercion as you bully various people into doing things your way.

Sure when it was pretty apparent that any further attempts to keep your plywood down here failed you may have voted the other way, but this was after a month of continued resistance.

So yes, I think it’s fair to say that “Clearly you have not been getting your way here for a while on many matters.”

Further I really do have better things to do with my time and continually point out the obvious flaws in your logic, or clean up your messes when you fail to act in a cooperative or trustworthy manner.

I do not believe that anything egregious has happened but is there harm in being open, transparent, and communicating? I am all for keeping everyone’s email from getting spammed or unwanted calls happening.

The maybe making a request for the phone numbers, email, and physical addresses was not the best way to go about things? Further you goal seems to be shifting. First it was to “socialize” other members outside the normal channels, then it was to perform an audit of the books, but you still requested information not necessary for the task.

Finally these comments about various members perhaps not paying their dues. If you think this is a problem, once again having another thread to discuss that might be a good idea, since it derails conversations about your requests for personal information that have no relevance to that topic.

I am posting unedited leadership email threads which apply. These emails show clear communication and serious consideration of all rights and concerns.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tixyzm7xwpop302/AAARXkdcmiZwOGMhHA1i87d2a?dl=0

Communication has been abundantly clear from me, from leadership, and among leadership. The above emails demonstrate this patently.

I do not find this matter amusing. I also find it very difficult to write these stern words; i would rather be kind and patient. This is not personal, it is principled.

I posted this thread separately to clearly separate matters of policy from the fallacy of circular logic which has inflected our mailing list, meetings, and events with tension and vitriol.

I am one member of leadership, therefore, as is shown in emails above, I have no power by myself. However, as a leader, it is not only my duty to serve the members, but also my duty to be strict and authoritative when individuals threaten the organization at large.

Coy, you are a charismatic orator, but your passionate and magnanimous words do not have parity with your ignominious actions.

Immanuel Kant writes:

“Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end.”Kant’s argument, which evolved the phrase “means to an end”, is that all rational beings are “an end” in themselves. Thus, the manipulation of human beings through deception or cunning does not respect a being’s intrinsic rationality. In this case, an argument of means does not presume nor respect a rational end.

Once again, the record is clear, and there is no error in communication. I have provided the record here, linked above.

Oh and in case it escaped other people’s attention, Coy decided that he had to do an audit of the membership lists, including physical addresses on Jan 20th, which is the day before we moved his plywood out of the Hive. To me it’s pretty clear the two events are connected.

Of course my request is tied to this and many things that happen in our space. If people find harm in being able to better socialize ideas by knowing at least member names I disagree with them. I also don’t see a problem with having oversight on our books which includes membership dues. If others believe in blind trust and don’t think errors can occur then they are fools.

Coy, this does not address my initial post. Rather, your circular logic, irrational anger, and omission prove the points stated.

So what exactly does ‘Socialize ideas’ mean? it sounds like an empty buzzword, but you keep using it.

And Coy, the membership voted to remove your wood, and you tried to propose a “vote to reverse the vote”. moments after it passed. So you don’t want to abide by the vote of the membership, you want to get YOUR way.

I have also heard you tell people that you were ‘Just here for the space’ and now you are here for ‘the community’?.
Bunk.
I feel that you are being disruptive out of petty vengeance for not being allowed to have your way. At this point, I feel that you do not have the Hive’s best interests at heart, but rather, YOURS, and you are happy to damage anyone or anything that doesn’t go along with your interests. I feel that you only do things for other people, chat them up, as part of a plan to dupe them into voting your way.

You don’t seem to be happy here, why not go found your own playspace? You can then store as much of your stuff in your community space as you like. You can ‘socialize Ideas’ with all your members. And generally have everything your way. (Which you are not getting here)

I saw you promise and promise to give CNC classes, but they did not happen… I saw you push to get a licensed software (where the Hive’s ethos has been to go with opensource) and not quite get the very expensive package you wanted. And then try to demand the software key (so you could pirate it, one guesses?)

You were given a timeline to remove your personal materials that were taking up more than a fair share of member storage space. You were given MORE time to do so when the first deadline passed. And you still did not. OTHER people had to do it for you because you would not do so yourself. And you threatened legal action.

You are not here for the Hive, not here for this community.