Vote: rent out space next door, more space!

Hey everyone,

We’ve been talking about this for a while now and there is enough information to do a vote.

We are looking at renting out the unit directly next to the hive (it is in the hallway leading to the back dock). The cost is $250/month plus a $250 deposit.

It is a little bigger than basically the woodworking area and cnc areas (~20ftx32ft).

There will some costs in getting the area to be ready to occupy such as adding some more lights. I don’t want to vote that in now, but rather wait until we have the space so we know what all we want to/need to do to that space. My educated guess right now is that the max it will be is $400, but I think it will be less than that.

I’ll send out another email shortly with more detail about the current ideas to use the space for, but right now the one most people are agreeing (this is mostly me talking to 6-8 different people down at the space) with is using it as a meeting area/lounge area with a couple of rentable workbenches/workspaces. Then the freed up area in the hive (meeting area and lounge) could be used for multiple things possibly including a dedicated sewing area and some less quiet rentable workbenches/workspaces.

Feel free to discuss on here!

A lot of leases do not allow subletting, renting out workspace would fall under that category. Do we have a copy of the lease contract to see if that’s possible.

I would recommend a secondary vote on what the space would be used for, and as of now we just vote on getting the space. If the vote is purely for renting the space and not for any intended use please clarify. The use of the space needs to be more than a 6-8 person decision.

I got a draft of the lease a few days ago. I can post it here for anyone curious.

It doesn’t allow subletting, but we still aren’t sure what exactly constitutes subletting. Coy is asking someone to clarify, so we can figure that out in the coming weeks.

This vote is only for renting out the space, not for anything else.

I highly encourage anyone who wants to discuss uses of the space to come down in person and check out the area. It is difficult to get an idea of the size of the unit and what would be cleared out in the main area.


Here is the draft lease.

2929SP_Lease_form_v2-1.pdf (121 KB)

I doubt that they’re going to be enthusiastic about us subletting pieces of that space.

One way to handle things is for the hive to charge for “additional storage” or “dedicated workspaces” and explicitly state as part of the agreement that any premium services are NOT a lease and are subject to availability. In the event that that space no longer becomes available, the hive can simply refund any charges for premium space. This keeps the obligation between the hive and its members and spares our landlords from being party to any sublet agreement.


I agree with dave, renting out a work bench is a former of subletting and the wording will have to be very legally specific.

As mentioned Jon mentioned if the vote is just for the space a few comments:
There is no argument we need more space.
This is a nice size and if we make it the social area & gathering areas it opens a good amount of space for the hive. To add equipment, or expand an area we have already ( for example the fablab into the lounge.)
For the social & meeting aspect it allows people to use tools during the meeting and social events without disturbing the area.
At one point when we went in there to look at the space we noticed a few problems… it’s been a while but my memory says there was water leakage, Very little in regards to electric outlets, and the floor was fairly uneven.
On a budget aspect how does this leave us on a per month “profit.” Are we still in the black? How much after rent insurance coo, cto, &area warden budget on top of other budgets?
how well sound proofed is this it borders the wall with the woodworking area which houses our loudest equipment.
Card reader access? Also will we change the back door that is dead bolted to a card reader? Also we will need a budget for this if we don’t have the equipment in stock. (Same with electric if that isn’t run well.)
Is it under another apartment. If so, should we sound proof the ceiling also?

Ian W was the one who originally asked to see the draft to make sure it was alright. He is saying that the workspaces in their current idea would be subletting so it wouldn’t be an issue. I’m waiting to hear back from a contact Coy has to be 100% on this though. I think the main reason it isn’t subletting is because whoever is paying for a workspaces doesn’t get exclusive access to the space. Officers still have access to any of those areas which is unlike how a sublet would be. We should wait for a second opinion this anyways.

Space maintenance - That was the biggest concern I brought up to Grant when I looked at the space. There is a very obvious water stain coming from one area of the wall and the leaks in our space haven’t been fixed. He said that since we only talked to Arnold (the maintenance guy) that he probably just forgot about it. He mentioned the issues to the building owners and said they actually get fixed, but it might be a couple of months depending on the weather. I also have the building owner’s contact info, so I’ll just contact them for future issues.

Budget - So this is a little bit hairer, but I’ll walk through the budget as best as I can:
Right now excluding the necessities (rent/insurance/internet) we are bringing $850/month.
The only other budget that gets taken out of that money is the COO budget, $100 (which I don’t really spend any more, just around for emergencies), and the warden budget which is $250, but only about $50-80 gets spent every month.

Sooo, if we spend ALL of our budgets and are paying this new rent we are down to about ~$250/mo. Going off of what we have really been spending we are at ~$550/mo.

Also, this doesn’t factor in any workspace income. Part of the point of workspaces was to help offset costs of the new area so we can continue buying tools, etc.

Unknowns: It is next to the same living area. The new area would be a quieter no-powertools-allowed area. FWIW the area we are next to is their living room rather than bedroom.

Card reader - If you mean the wooden double doors, then no, we’ll just leave that open. The only person who has access to the back hallway is our neighbor next door so whatever. I have no plans to add any rfid readers to the dock door and I doubt any one else does either.


At this point until building management fixes the damages, I do not think its a good idea to rent with a leak. Weather or not, this should be getting fixed a while back. It could damage the items we put in there need they be electronics or tools.

I did speak with a building management firm, and explained the situation and asked for advice. The guy i spoke with did tell me this would still be considered subletting. (The gentleman I spoke with has been doing building management downtown for nearly 40 years.) He explained as the area we rent out would be for exclusive use by one person(or organization) it is considered subletting. From reading the contract I would agree with him. Nowhere in any legal ground could I find that a subletted area has to have exclusive access. I will ask tomorrow even if the location is within an open area. But I did explain that somewhat already.
Even if he is wrong if they decided to say it is the legal fight that could occur if building management did fight this would be detrimental to the hive.

We could always talk with the owners and explain what we want to do. They could modify the contract to allow “small space” subletting (or some other legalese).
Agree that the repairs should get done. A lot easier to get done before things get signed.



I believe another factor was that because only members of Hive13 (i.e. the primary tenant) would be able to rent workspaces, they would be considered co-tenants rather than sub-tenants, which negates the subleasing issues.

Disclaimer: I am paraphrasing, possibly badly, from Ian W. and do not in fact possess any legal knowledge of my own whatsoever.

  • Ian B.

Here is Ian’s full text on the subletting:

"In leases and renting, you have three types of Tenancy:

1.) Direct Tenant – in this case, that would be us.
2.) Co Tenant – In a residential lease, this would be people like your spouse and children – people whom you have a direct relationship with. In a business lease, this would be people who share a shared business relationship (in our case, our members).
3.) Sub Tenant – people who we have no direct or shared relationship with outside of the space.

It is/was my understanding that everyone who subleases space would be hive members – either individually or otherwise. Because everyone has a hive membership, and as such, we have a shared business relationship with all of the members, the only way a subtenancy would be a factor is if the hive abandoned the space, sought out someone to wholly occupy the space, and then just forwarded their payments to our landlord.

Let me know if this clarifies/clears things up…but, we should be fine as far as the lease is concerned. "

I’m going to wait for an actual lawyer who works in the area to give us advice on this matter.

Brad’s idea is pretty good as well. Just ask Garden Street and see if they are ok with it and will write it in to the lease.

I have been a landlord and had to deal with some similar issues.

Regarding condition of the space / repairs… Two good options:

  1. Write any desired repairs/improvements as a condition of the lease. I’ve had tenants stipulate that certain things be done prior to occupancy in the past. This makes it very clear to the landlord what is expected and gives the tenant strong legal ground.
  2. Ask to have things done, wait for them to get done, escrow rent until repairs are complete. There is a clear, well-documented procedure for doing this.
    (note: these are not mutually exclusive)

As for the whole subletting thing - JUST DON’T DO IT. If you term the transaction a lease/rent, the legal waters get murky. If you provide “premium services” and include in the agreement that:
-Services are provided when the resources are available to do so
-There is no guarantee of services expressed or implied
-In the event services cannot be provided, the Hive’s liability is limited to funds received as payment for services
Doing so will largely keep the hive from much of the muddy water associated with leases, sublets and property rental.

My 2 cents.

It’s not clear to me how this renting of workspace would work anyway. Is the idea that someone pays extra and then they can leave their projects on a workbench or other area indefinitely because they are paying for it?

It seems to me that this would make the space less attractive, not more.

Honestly I am not sure the hive should be getting into the business of subletting space

If as a group we cant decide on what we need the space for yet, then we just don’t need the space at a cost of $250.00 per month.

Who picks up the tab when persons decide not to pay extra for rental this space? Its my suggestion if a few members are interested in renting this new area, then they can do so without the other hive members approval.


So just so everyone is still clear: We will just be voting this week to decide if we will rent the space next door. NOT on the use of the space, etc.

I think we should probably table the “subleasing” discussion for right now, considering that is only one idea for the space. No one here has enough information to really discuss it yet, so it seems futile to keep saying the same things over and over again … especially when there is no real legal expertise here yet. Coming up with other ideas and brainstorming other ways to use the space seems more useful for the time being.

We are expecting to discuss the potential use of the space for a LONG time. In general more space mean we can do more things, bring in more awesome tools and reorganize some of the existing spaces to prevent dust and noise contamination, at the very least! When the hive started, most of the space was unused/not used in the best way for awhile, but we have grown into the space that we had originally even if it wasn’t the best at the start. I think this new space will be the same!

I think expanding the hive is a wonderful step in making our space even better! And we can best decide how to use the space once we have it, and can discuss it together for awhile! :slight_smile:


As a side note: without members paying extra for the space, we do have enough income and savings to try getting extra space as an experiment. So this option isn’t necessary for us to try out the space and see what it can do for the hive.

My vote at this time is no. Until the area is fixed up.

Even a lack of plan of use is fine. But the damages that they have been aware of needs to he fixed before we take any responsibility for the space.

I am all for getting more space but not when the space is damaged and it’s not our responsibility to fix it. I recommend tabling this vote or voting again once our landlords fix the ongoing problems.

My absentee vote is no,


I think this is too premature to vote yes but also am not opposed enough to vote no. I’m going to abstain from this vote. I don’t get the impression that this is prime rental. It will be there. I think we should come up with more of a plan for how to use the space. We think we should come up with more of a plan on how to get Garden St. to fix shit in general and if necessary tie it to the lease of this space.

In case I do not make it to the meeting, I vote yes, This just a trial and we will figure out the how and what of using it once we have it… If it doesn’t end up being cost effective we just won’t renew the lease. We can afford to have it for a year.