Looks like the oil “leak” is on the gearbox for the oscillator motor. Pic attached. To me, it looks like it’s just oil from the fill and drain plugs, doesn’t really concern me much, but easy enough to pull that angled gearbox out and replace the oil and plug sealant. I can do that.
The machines were in use and working till about 5-6 years ago, when the last pattern maker at my job retired. At that point, the pattern shop went mostly unused except for every now and then for building shipping pallets. Even then, about 4-5 years ago the dust collector they had failed, and thy decided to simply fully shut down the wood shop. So the equipment has been fully idle since then.
I’ve privately messaged Tom to see if he is willing to install a circuit and outlet next to the 3-phase panel in the CNC room. If he or someone else is willing to do the permanent wiring, I’ll get a lead and plug installed on the machine and give it a good maintenancing. This will be worthwhile even if we decide to sell the machines, so we can show them working to a buyer.
In reference to why this was not looked at regarding the leaky gearbox or any of the electrical deficiencies with the machine. Before yesterday, from what I can tell from this long list of messages, time was not allocated to dig into the machine and look to see the status of the internal component. Everything before now was that the machine was “taken out of a working shop”. The dimensions of the machine were xyz. The expendables are x cost, which were very important factors for the machines and the vote that is happening, but what was missed is the overall health of the machines before a vote was put up for consideration.
There was a desire to look at the machines as a whole to make sure that it was going to be safe if the vote passes to allocate funds for the electrical work needed. In full transparency, Myself, George, Dave V, Chris D, Dave B, and I took apart the machines yesterday. John Clark and I looked at the machines the other day as well and decided this needed to happen. The machines themselves are a robust build with some glaring issues that need to be solved before commissioning them. We wanted to set up a test environment for these machines to see if they were viable, but the electrical deficiencies below prevented us from doing that yesterday.
First take on the electrical deficiencies of the machines that need to be solved before they are put into service. I would not feel comfortable feeding 480 to these machines without some of the following issues addressed. This applies to both machines.
Main service cords to the machines need to be replaced. The cable is not a modern service SO or SOOW-rated cable. There are signs of cracking. I forgot to check the cable for correct sizing, but I will do that ASAP.
The service cable entries to the electrical panels are not rated to prevent ingress of dust (apparent from the amount of dust in the disconnect switches and the contactors).
Disconnect switches need to be replaced as most of the contacts inside the panel are pitted or showing signs of overheating, due to bad connections.
All internal wiring in the panel needs to be replaced as the jackets of the wires are sticky to the touch and are susceptible to overheating/degradation do to time.
Contactors are in the same condition as the disconnect switches. There are no overload devices on the contactors that any modern device would have as a standard.
Mechanical issues Spindle sander:
The oscillation motor gearbox is showing signs of leaking grease. Cleaned up the motor a bit to see if there was a source of the leak, but could not locate it. Kevin just agreed to rebuild this motor as needed in a post before this.
The bellow / Rubber boot on the bottom of the oscillation mechanism is cracked and full of dust. This will probably need to be disassembled and rebuilt. Someone will need to lead this task as well.
Small issues with the control buttons not being secured well.
Guards on the machine are to be as designed for the age of the machine
Mechanical issues with the Disk sander:
The safety guard on the top of the machine is damaged and does not secure to the housing correctly.
The start stop button on the disk sander is wobbly.
In conclusion, following up on Kevin’s request for a test plug, this seems like a great idea. We were planning on hard-wiring the devices yesterday, but this gives us the ability to do future tests as needed. I will get with John Clark to acquire the parts as quickly as possible.
Tom - great write up with clear notes. Most of these things I frankly would never in a million years have flagged as issues because I am not an electrical expert (ever after looking at the photos and having the issue explained, I am still not sure I can tell you what an overheated B phase looks like), so I am glad someone with some knowledge took a look. While I do wish this had been addressed earlier, better late than never. Please keep us updated on the test. Frankly, when someone with electrical background says they don’t want to hook this up to 480, that raises some concern in my mind and I am wondering if we need to put this vote on hold until these are run to ground.
Just to be clear - I would wholeheartedly vote for $3000 or more to put these machines in service, if there was a comprehensive plan.
Since “failure” case for this vote is a little extreme (getting rid of the machines) can we ask to extend this vote for another week or two to allow a little more information gathering?
I appreciate the discussion and work everybody has put into this vote, especially Tom for the detailed writeup of our tool spelunking on Saturday, I think it has quickly clarified the situation. I see a general consensus forming on next steps that looks like:
Pause this vote while:
Tom and John order parts and set up a 3 phase test station receptacle, with 1 or 2 machine leads with plugs to match.
Kevin gives the two machines ‘a good maintenancing’ – please keep us updated on when, I (and I expect others) will be happy to give you a hand
That should give us an understanding what next steps are - order parts and rewire them, or finish cleaning them up for sale / disposal and move on.
If we move forward with rebuilding the machines to put them into service in the woodshop, we will still need:
Details and documentation on preventative maintenance and repair processes
Certification procedures
A specific person who is volunteering to lead 1. and 2.
How does that sound to folks, particularly Stephen and Kevin?
Are you proposing that we buy the electrical parts and get them rewired without a vote? If so, sure. Just let me know and I’ll start ordering the stuff to get them usable.
Having a 3-phase “Test Outlet” seems like a very useful thing long term no matter what. Maybe not as useful after we have several tools that use 3-phase. But if it gets put somewhere convenient, it could still make lives easier the next go round, which seems like a win.
It is also great to see a clear path being presented to make it happen. I think the space as a whole really benefits when we have that attitude of “You want to do something? Great, here is how we make that happen.” I wanted to throw out a kudos to everyone involed for that.
Are you proposing that we buy the electrical parts and get them rewired without a vote?
To clarify, I was pulling together your last two posts here. I think we’re at the point that the machines should get a more in depth review at the test stand Tom and John set up, and we can get a better understanding of what parts and costs will be needed for rewiring. That will inform the discussion and an updated vote on what’s next for them.
I would at least want to get a new power lead, plug, and motor starter/overload assembly (about $200-250 per machine) for them before hooking them up to power.
This vote was for machines described as ready to run, only need was connection to electrical and dust collection services. Unfortunately it turns out they need more in depth evaluation and rebuilding before that is possible. This vote should be canceled.
I am comfortable with installation of a 3 phase test stand and a power lead to wire up a piece of equipment to it. But that isn’t enough to fully evaluate the machines and produce a BOM for a rebuild, right?
Then we need a new vote for the minimum parts to get them operating safely, with a reasonable budget for the remaining parts to be specified.
This vote can be stopped as described AND while we are working through this, any other concerns should be brought up in the next pre-vote discussion so we can address concerns before the next vote goes live, to the extent reasonably possible. That will be posted in the woodshop channel.
I think this makes the most sense lets do this. Also I can write 1 and 2, and they can be posted on the wiki for the tool if we adopt it. The only info I may need is, if we expect this gearbox to be serviced regularly I would want photos probably and a description of what is done from Keven + service intervals… I am not sure this is going to be a thing though, so I will rely on Kevin to tell me.
Re the request to compare this project to alternate machines - the history of that and a comparison is in the pre-vote discussion. The alternate that Doug shared always still an option if people want it.
The disk sander is harder to find a modern equivalent, most 12-15" 1hp disk sanders now are bench top machines. Similar quality/reliability ones are available for $1500ish, or powermatic has a 20" 2hp pedestal disk sander for $3500
These tools are definitely worth a few hundred dollars to fix up.
